CHE YUBINA talks about CHESHIR HA: Creative Freedom and Finding Neverland
Cheshir Ha. The K-pop choreographer sways into the centre of a dance studio, head rocking to the heavy RnB banger. Dance students are huddled around the edges of the room, eyes locked on her... There’s a silent count off 1, 2, 3, 4, - Then, Cheshir glides into a wavy high-energy dance routine, punctuated by angular arm movements and intricate handwork. Shrieks of excitement fill the room as she swoops to the floor, her legs and feet effortlessly finding the pockets between the stuttering hi-hats and thumping 808 baseline. Smiling, yet intense eyes, peeking out under her baseball cap. Defying gravity, Cheshir bounces to her feet and effortlessly kicks out her lead leg, zig-zagging forward to a stop. Finally, she hits an epically hard pop and lock with her chest and arms. And with that, she swaggers off the dance floor.
Three things are clear. Cheshir Ha is super-cool, her passion for dance is undeniable and there’s an enigmatic air that surrounds her.
So, it was only natural that the most famous member of the biggest K-pop girl group in the world, LISA from BLACKPINK, hand-picked Cheshir to choreograph her internet-breaking dance performance video The Movie (2021). The demand for her hip-hop fusion classes became so great she flew around the world countless times to Berlin, France and London to teach in sold-out dance studios. Cheered on by a hugely loyal fanbase that grew rapidly to almost half a million followers on Instagram. Seemingly, Cheshir Ha was a next-gen dance icon in the making with the world at her feet.
But at the start of 2023, Cheshir Ha retired... In a startling Instagram post, Cheshir called time on her persona, which she had created when she was just 19 years old. An identity crisis of sorts had been chipping away at Cheshir since the pandemic... A rather vague, yet telling line from her Instagram post highlighted her need to ground herself in a new identity closer to her own. Simply put, ‘Cheshir’ was shortened to ‘Che’ and combined with her original name ‘Yubin’, and thus Cheshir Ha was reborn as ‘the more mature and sincere’ artist: “Che Yubina”. Yes, that was all well and good, but what could her supporters, peers and the wider dance industry expect from this newly minted creative force?
A rather bleary-eyed English man [I’m not a morning person] jumped on a Zoom call with Che to find out more about her pivotal moment of creative transformation and deep dive into her choreography work, new-found artistic freedom and her mission to challenge the idea of perfection within the K-pop music industry.
What follows is an edited version of our lively, thoughtful and often funny conversation.
Tom: Hey, Che! So, for people who aren’t familiar with you and your work—who are you and what do you do?
Che Yubina: I see myself as a visual artist, movement director and choreographer. I started my career as a choreographer, but I’m trying to do more things as a visual artist and movement director right now.
Tom: With that in mind, what have you been working on recently that you’d like to draw attention to?
Che: I recently worked with so.yoon [So!YoON!] from the band SE SO NEON, she’s an amazing artist, and someone I looked up to when I was younger. I was the movement director on her [BAD] music video—it’s the most satisfying thing I’ve done so far!
Tom: Now, I feel very lucky to talk with you at this pivotal moment of creative transformation as you recently announced via Instagram you’re retiring your “Cheshir Ha” persona. I know in the past you’ve talked about putting on a mask in certain situations and taking it off when you dance—so, why did you create Cheshir Ha and how did she help you?
Che: I wasn’t really good at socialising with people, I found it hard to open up because as a kid I didn’t feel accepted by people—so, Cheshir was a great tool for me to open up to people and show them who I was.
Tom: I know personas are frequently used in K-pop, did you draw inspiration from a particular artist and think right I’m going to make that vibe my own?
Che: It wasn’t really like that. My nickname was “Cheshir” in high school because of my smile [Che mentions the Cheshire Cat from Alice In Wonderland]. And looking back now I can see Cheshir was coming from my insecurities.
Tom: At that time in your life, where do you think those insecurities came from?
Che: In [South] Korea, I questioned many things. Why did I have to be so nice to older people? Maybe, they were bad people. Why did I have to put myself down just because they were men? No respect for me. I just did the opposite thing, putting a guard up—nobody really got me...
Tom: I just want to pick up on that point—have you always naturally pushed back against authority?
Che: The way my parents brought me up was very different from other people. I always had a lot of questions, and my mom would never say to me “you should just do it like everybody else!”, she always gave me a good reason to do something. And my parents were open to hearing my opinion. I feel fortunate about that.
Tom: So, how old were you when you started to dance?
Che: I was 10 years old, which is quite late compared to my friends. My father didn’t want a television in our home [laughs], so I didn’t know that much about K-pop growing up. I actually started watching things through my friends— but I never had much interest in female K-pop artists. I was like oh, that boyband really dances well [laughs]—I want to do that!
Tom: When did you discover you were an insanely talented dancer? Did it take you a couple of years to find your feet and dance moves?
Che: I think [laughs], I knew about it from the beginning [laughs]—
Tom: [laughs] I like the confidence!
Che: I always think about it like this. I know what I can do, logically if people like what I do. I’m the only choice [laughs]. My friends would say “you’re so cocky!”. But no, I’m just really serious about what I do.
Tom: I know idol training is a huge part of the K-pop industry, did you start your career as a trainee and then, switch it up and become a choreographer?
Che: In Korea, the dance scene can be divided into the underground and commercial side [K-pop]. I started in the underground. So, the underground is battle dancing, taking dance classes and teaching. I started teaching dance classes, and some of my students were K-pop artists, they wanted to work with me. Yeah, it was like that.
Tom: Now, I’m very jealous here—you must feel and hear music in a very unique way. So, can you remember the first time you went “Oh, that’s a Cheshir track”?
Che: I don’t really remember the first time. But, I only really have one song that I feel like it's my track. It’s Nobody by Jhené Aiko, when I first heard it, I felt like I was meeting someone just like me. It was magical, the way they chose the beat, how Jhené used her voice—[Che mimes shaking hands with Jhené] It was like we really met each other through that song.
Tom: You know, I’ve watched a lot of [Youtube] videos of you dancing, and I mean a lot [laughs]. And I noticed something—you mostly wore baggy 2-Pac t-shirts, cargo pants, vans and a pulled-down baseball cap. So, did you use that look as Cheshir’s suit of armour in the ultra-competitive world of dance and choreography?
Che: I didn’t have much interest in fashion. I’ve always been insecure about my body, when I was young I was a skinny girl. Everyone made fun of it... So, I didn’t want to show my body when dancing, I covered myself with big clothes, so nobody would know my body type... I’d wear heavy makeup because I felt ugly... It’s funny because my dance students started to dress like me. It was bittersweet... All the things people found iconic about Cheshir came from my insecurities... It was very weird for me [laughs]—people loved my insecurities! So, that’s the biggest reason why I wanted to get rid of Cheshir.
Tom: Do you compare yourself to other hip-hop choreographers, I guess there’s a look: sporty and glamorous. You know, there’s a vibe of extra-drippiness about them?
Che: No. I just think about myself. I don’t measure myself against other choreographers, I don’t have much of an opinion on them. I just focus on my past and future.
Tom: Now, please tell me if I’m wrong here. But I feel like the peak of Cheshir’s era was The Movie (2021); the final dance performance video you did with LISA [Lalisa Manobal] from BlackPink. How did working with LISA change your career?
Che: Even now, I’m slowly realising the impact it had on me —at the time everybody was telling me “you’re a success now!”, but I just felt like I’d done something that satisfied me [laughs]. I didn’t have a lot of experience working with other artists—I had to rely on my talent and communicate authentically with LISA. I didn’t give myself a high score, I just felt like I needed more experience.
Tom: I’ve watched a couple of videos of LISA, learning dance choreography [laughs]—she’s an absolute beast! So, two super-talented dancers working together—how far did you push each other creatively and physically?
Che: With any great collaboration, there has to be a big level of trust, once I feel that—we can do our best! I felt that with LISA, she picked me because she believed in my talent and ability, and we connected in a genuine way outside of work.
Tom: When you work with an artist that’s as famous as LISA is, there must be a negative side. I mean, there must be a lot of clout chasers, who don’t really care about the hard work, but they’re obsessed with “What’s Lisa really like?...”.
Che: It’s just sad [laughs]. I just think what a sad world we’re living in right now, people just care about fame. They’re so many talented people in the world, and they’re doing great things. When people think of an artist as just a product, just doing pretty things, especially in the K-pop scene it can get pretty toxic online. I just leave the negative comments alone. They don’t know me [laughs].
Tom: Okay, can you tell me about the days leading up to you finally saying goodbye to Cheshir Ha—did you feel any fear or anxiety about leaving your iconic persona behind you?
Che: I don’t think about it as a goodbye. Che Yunbia is just a better version of Cheshir [Ha], that’s the thing. I was Cheshir and Yubin at the same time—it was me! But, I hid from people... My friends would always say I looked like a deer in headlights when students would come up and try to talk with me—I’d run away. I didn’t have much interest in people... But that side of me changed a lot this year: I’m genuinely interested in people now! It’s great, I want to know what they’re doing [big smile]. I think Yubin hadn’t had enough time to really grow up like from 17 or 18 [years old]... I was working so much—I didn’t have much time to experience life... I was stuck. But now, I can truly be myself!
Tom: Where did that new-found sense of self- confidence come from?
Che: I think for me [long pause]... I don’t really want to talk about it that much, but around 22 [years old], I had a really traumatic experience in my life. And it led me too, I don’t want to work right now, which was a strange thing for me. I’ve always been very passionate about work. But, this was the time I needed to take care of myself. So, I went to Germany with my family. Thinking about it business-wise, moving at that time was a stupid idea—but I needed to breathe. I had a lot of time to think [long pause]... Why did I value myself more as an artist than a human being, you know? I had to do better; I wanted to see my art without my insecurities... I decided to be stronger, value myself more, and think better thoughts.
Tom: I feel like there’s a tendency to be very hard on one’s self, especially in the dance industry, which is very focused on image and work ethic. So, how did you start to find yourself as an artist outside of K-pop?
Che: I mean for me, I’ve always been interested in creating things, movement is a tool. I might do another job after being a choreographer [laughs]—I wanted to be a copywriter when I was younger! My content has different purposes, but I want the audience to think or feel something, good or bad—that comes from my mom being a psychologist, I analyse everything—
Tom: Okay, let’s jump into a recent piece of work away from your day job—like Dance In Dream (2023) [performed at @PuntoBluSeoul]. You collaborated with musician yeesangyu and visual artist Liseok, what was that like?
Che: Oh, yeah! That was very different for me. Everything was freestyle, I didn’t know what kind of music or moving images were going to be played [laughs]. We didn’t know what we were doing, we communicated through our art and figured it out. I’ve always worked as a choreographer not really as a live performer; I was a little bit scared because of the audience. I prefer video to the stage, you know. But Dance In Dream was a really good combination of things!
Tom: Oh, really? That’s so interesting—I just thought you’d be equally confident on the stage or in a video. Would you say you’re still trying to find your feet as a live performer?
Che: Yeah—as a performer or visual artist, I think of myself more as a movie actress. I’ve made a lot of videos, playing different roles. I need more experience on stage to find out if that’s going to work for me. Yes, until now—video has been more of a thing for me.
Tom: Yes, I’d never really thought about that before. You’re a movie actress! Yeah, there are a lot of great film actors, who never do theatre. The stage can be a very exposing place—you can’t yell “cut” and edit your performance in real time... I guess, is being in control important for you?
Che: I like improvisation, it works for me. I don’t plan things, it’s my personality. But there has to be a good balance, I need the control I have in videos.
Tom: Oh, I think a good example of that would be Fish Men (2022)—was it inspired by Gene Kelly in Singing In The Rain (1952)? I mean naturally, anybody who dances with an umbrella is definitely referencing that film knowingly or not [laughs].
Che: I think style-wise, I like to try a lot of different things. I’d say my base is in contemporary [dance]. It’s not even a base of movement— it’s more of a base of how I interpret movement, it comes from a contemporary place, you know. There’s no choreography in Fish Men, it’s totally improvised, and that’s how I dance naturally.
Tom: I wonder when you watch famous dancers like Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire—what do you find inspiring about them?
Che: I’m inspired by their choices. Oh like, how they choose a style and movement to do different things. But recently, I like to watch non-dancers, dancing! It’s more interesting to me because their movement is just so authentic—they don’t know any moves. They’re free. I can’t do that anymore, I know too much.
Tom: Now, I think I can say this coming from England... The beauty standards in the K-pop music industry are pretty intense for both men and women. Obviously, that’s a complex topic to get into, and you’ve probably experienced the best and worst sides of it. But with that in mind, what do you find beautiful in 2023?
Che: Something not perfect. I love it when something has something wrong with it [big laugh]... This year I don’t feel very safe career-wise, you know. I’m gambling with my life, changing my name is a big thing for me—people might forget about Cheshir. And I’ll have to start everything from the top again. But that isn’t a good reason not to move forward, I’m excited about this year. I feel like being perfect means you’ve given up something.
Tom: Yeah, trying to be perfect can be a bit of a trap— do you find the idea of perfection restricting?
Che: Everyone has their own taste and choice. And I think some people have very strong opinions on what’s beautiful —I just wish there was less judgement, you know. Oh, You like to do that...?—Okay! Yeah, I don’t really care about people’s opinions, I’m just going to do what I want anyway!
Tom: Just following on from that, did you start CHEDO [Che’s new movement brand] with choreographers Vicky, Monroe and Jiyoung to address issues of representation, identity and body image—you know, make things better for younger dancers?
Che: Yes, of course. I wanted to give them a better choice career-wise because in Korea there are only really two options. You can be a dance instructor in the underground, or be a really good K-pop choreographer in the commercial scene—that’s it. There are some young people, who don’t like those options, but they love dancing. I believe there’s another way like being a movement director. So, I’m a choreographer, movement director and visual artist—I’m really just showing what can be done in those spaces— that’s what I’m doing with CHEDO!
Tom: It’s amazing you’re creating a third space for all those things to coalesce! I guess, just looking back to your previous work—would you say NEVERLAND (2022), the short film you produced and starred in, represents your vision of that?
Che: Yes—so, in that video it’s my [dance] students and myself, and I wanted to show them following their dream. And then, I play someone who’d stop dreaming—caught up in reality—but finds their way back to NEVERLAND; the dream world. Really, I’m talking about the reality of being an artist, you know—artists start out wanting to do something specific with their career, but they can’t do whatever they want and still make money. So, they give up on their dream and just move to the business side. I want CHEDO to be a Neverland for sad young people, where they can dream whatever they want—that’s the thing I can offer for now; it’s about freedom and accepting yourself.
Tom: I remember when we first met [via Zoom] you said “Sad is beautiful too”, and it stuck with me. Can you tell me more about that?
Che: I think emotions like anger, sadness and loneliness are the most authentic ones because nobody wants to feel them [laughs]. Everybody wants to be happy, it’s a positive way to be. Nobody wants to see negative emotions, but I think they're a really important tool to figure out what’s going on with you—there’s nothing wrong with them—you need to feel them—so you can move on. I like to make a lot of videos dealing with sadness and loneliness—I’m not depressed [laughs], I think there’s something really authentic and beautiful about those emotions.
Tom: Finally, what’s your dream project if time and money weren’t an issue?
Che: I want to make a movie! Three minutes is so short, I think I could make a really good movie. Recently, I’ve been thinking about movement, acting, music and fashion— using all those tools in a movie—that’s very exciting to me!
Tom: Yes, I think you’d make an amazing actress! Have you done any acting before?
Che: Not really, I think that’s going to be the next step, I’d love to try it out. But there’s one video called Comma Project (2021), and I was like crying in that video, it wasn’t planned at all. I was in the moment and I started to cry. When we started to edit the video, I didn’t want to use that clip—I was so embarrassed. But I was like oh, let me watch
it—actually it was so pretty! After that, I’ve been very curious about becoming an actress and seeing what I can do emotionally.
Tom: Well, I look forward to seeing what you do next! It’s been an absolute pleasure talking with you.
Thank you so much, Che!