From Japan to Paris - SHIBARI by Marie Sauvage
Self-described on Twitter as the “Shibari Bondage Queen”, New York-bred and Tokyo-trained Marie Sauvage tours around the world, performing the intricate Japanese art of shibari in exclusive settings. To those who are not familiar with shibari yet-it is a form of bondage in Japanese “Kabarett”, that revolves around the use of rope to create suspension and evoke tension. It originated in the late Edo period of Japan when they used to capture prisoners using strategic knots.
GATA Magazine caught up with her in London at Paul’s 23, an eccentric strip club, to talk more about intimacy, performance and human vulnerability.
GATA: Shibari originates from Japan, but you perform globally. How is shibari practiced and perceived culturally, let’s say in the US vs Japan?
Marie Sauvage: Actually the first time I saw shibari I was in New York. I don’t really like American culture in regards to sex, I think it is too puritan and hypocritical. I am probably going to be hated for being so frank about it, but I think American sexuality is too centred around identity, in a sense it is important to assert your identity in terms of like your gender or your sexual preference and how you present yourself in the world, but so much of this is taking away from the actual being present in your sexuality. I feel like the point of sexuality is to enjoy it and enjoy it and not just a way to identify yourself.
GATA: Yeah, categorising seems to be in the foreground.
Marie Sauvage: Yes, it is so much about how this is how I define myself and not about “let me experience” and “let me be fluid”.
“There are almost two layers to the tying, the dominance of the person who is tying and also, in another sense, the person who is tying is almost worshipping the person that they are elevating into the air. I find it poetic; it is like transcending them to a higher place.”
GATA: How did you get into shibari?
Marie Sauvage: I went to a lot of fetish events in New York City, and the shibari there seemed very ego-driven. I did not like it; when I saw it, I was like, this is so complicated and ugly. A friend kept on insisting that when I went to Japan, I had to see shibari and where it comes from because it derives from Japanese culture, and I just kept dismissing her. She kept telling me for a couple of years, and I finally went to Japan, and I met Hajime Kinoko, the master I apprenticed for, and when I saw his and his student’s work, I completely fell in love because I saw the diverse approach.
Philosophically, spiritually and even emotionally to the rope. Yes, there is a dominant, submissive aspect to tie, but there is such a sense of reverence for your partner. There are almost two layers to the tying, the dominance of the person who is tying and also, in another sense, the person who is tying is almost worshipping the person that they are elevating into the air.
I find it poetic; it is like transcending them to a higher place.
GATA: How do people react to your art?
Marie Sauvage, I think when people see shibari done with the right intention, the visceral reaction is universal. People respond to it; they feel something that I notice in every country, any person, when they see it, they feel the same way. They are very touched by it.
When I first started doing shibari, I thought people would find it perverse or dark-I am so surprised by people’s reaction; it doesn't matter the culture or age; people consider it art and are emotional about it. Even my father came to one of my events in Paris, and I thought he would be like, “what the hell”? And he thought it was spiritual and poetic—he was proud of me. And he doesn't know anything about shibari. I think when people see other people in vulnerable positions and being taken care of in a safe space for them to let go. That does not really exist in a world full of barriers. Shibari is seen as a utopia, a few minutes of a moment, where two people trust each other.
GATA: That’s beautifully put. It’s like a release, an escape. How did your master, Hajime Kinoko, get into shibari? I feel like he has really shone a spotlight on how shibari can be used with installations-they seem to be enormous spider webs.
Marie Sauvage: He actually started because his girlfriend was into it. This was 22 years ago. He learned from a line of masters.
GATA: How do you feel about Araki, who has consistently shown shibari elements in his photographs?
Marie Sauvage: I like his work a lot; he also has a background in graphic design, like me. You can see in his work that he has an incredible eye for aesthetics and composition. He really feels eroticism, and as a viewer, you can sense that-I love that. They are not posed; there is emotion spilling out of the images and his models; there is a connection.
GATA: There is this quote from Araki, where he states, “My camera is my penis”. In a way, the phrase in itself is penetrating.
Marie Sauvage: Ooh, but I like that, that penetration is linked to someone's intimate self; in a way, he is penetrating into another person’s intimate space, he is taking a peak into a private part of a person.
“I think when people see other people in vulnerable positions and being taken care of in a safe space for them to let go. That does not really exist in a world full of barriers. Shibari is seen as a utopia, a few minutes of a moment, where two people trust each other.”
GATA: To what extent do you think shame or the release of shame plays a role in shibari? Being tied and suspended, one cannot alter or hide oneself; one is open-the most vulnerable.
Marie Sauvage: Shame is a big part of shibari, particularly in Japanese culture. They have a different concept of bodily exposure than in western culture. There are different body parts that they find particularly shameful, like exposing your tongue or your teeth or even a shoulder or armpit. There are even different shibari poses where those parts are exposed, and I think it is, in a way exposure therapy. You are forcing yourself to be in an uncomfortable position, you are faced with shame, and then you realize that it is not such a big deal. Especially if the person who is making you confront it is accepting that very dark, seemingly dirty side of yourself. That is the ultimate form of intimacy.
GATA: Wow, how did shibari impact your personal notion of shame?
Marie Sauvage: There is so much shame instilled by society that there is such a sex-negative view. Even a person like me, who is very experimental and experienced, I really don’t give a fuck; still, sometimes I feel shame about certain aspects of my body, or myself or my sexuality. It is external, it is not internal. It is something that was conditioned into us, something that I actively work on un-conditioning and enjoying myself.
GATA: “Shibari Therapy” should be a thing. Have you seen people feel liberated?
Marie Sauvage: Yes, people have found catharsis through shibari. By allowing themselves to be vulnerable with the rope, they confront parts of themselves that they would otherwise not confront in day-to-day life. They find themselves liberated. They cry sometimes.
GATA: What settings do you perform in? I saw you once at Serpente a Plume in Paris, but you also perform at private events.
Marie Sauvage: Yes! Especially during covid, most of it was in private houses, and I much prefer that. I have become extremely selective now about the spaces, the public spaces that I do shibari; I want to be in control, to produce my own events. I don't particularly like to work for public events. Usually, the audience is from mine or the model’s fan base-they already have an understanding of what they are going to see.
GATA: Do you talk to the people while you are tying them?
Marie Sauvage: Sometimes people forget to communicate because it is such an intense feeling to be suspended, or they want people to please, so they forget they can say if they are feeling uncomfortable. I always ask are you ok? Every time I switch positions in a really subtle way to not break the tension.
GATA: We heard you’ll be in Tokyo soon…Are you performing there? Where can we find you?
Marie Sauvage: Yes, I’ll be there October 17-November 30th. I am going there to learn more with some masters. With Hajime Kinoko and also another who specializes in hypnosis with shibari. So I want to learn more about his skills. I usually announce performances on Instagram Marie Sauvage. There is the Titty Twister Bar, which is a shibari bar. Or also Sleeping Beauty which is like a swingers bar.
“Yes, people have found catharsis through shibari. By allowing themselves to be vulnerable with the rope, they confront parts of themselves that they would otherwise not confront in day-to-day life. They find themselves liberated. They cry sometimes.”
GATA: Do masters usually take apprentices?
Marie Sauvage: Yes, shibari is becoming more popular. He has six studios and four teachers working under his style. Every week he teaches two group workshops, but you can also book him for a private class.
GATA: If you were an animal, what would you be?
Marie Sauvage: First thing I would say would be a cat, but that was just the person I was trying to be, performative and sexy. Really though, I am a raccoon. I love to go to the fridge and sneak around. They’re so cute. Even my friends call me that now.
GATA: Good answer. How old are you, and when did you grow into yourself?
Marie Sauvage: I am 32. I did not really know who I really was at Parsons. I started at 19; I was just figuring myself out. I watched a lot of films, erotic films; I love cinema. That is when I started being more interested in alternative sexuality. I started going to swinger events in Paris (while I was still at Parsons).
My sexual side started developing. And then, on my 22nd birthday, that’s when I had the realization that I wanted to be a showgirl as I went to see Crazy Horse in Paris (a Burlesque show), but I knew I wanted to do something more than stand and look pretty.
In fact, I saw Dita Von Teese, which blew my mind. I was like, who is this woman? And it did not feel like she was performing for a man; she was simply embodying her sexuality, which was powerful to me. However, I did not want to do burlesque; I wanted to do something more connecting - I find ropeway more interactive. Also, with the racial context. When you do show business, you have to think about how you are being perceived racially. For example, a blond bombshell, like Marilyn Monroe or even Dita Von Teese, has a totally different connotation than someone who is black or Asian in Burlesque. For me doing shibari made more sense.
GATA: What movies have inspired you?
Marie Sauvage: The first erotic film that inspired me was The Night Porter (1974). A man uses this BDSM relationship that developed in a concentration camp as a guise for him to be intimate with a woman. When they meet again after the war, they are trauma bonded and fall into this very dark, passionate relationship. I was so entranced-I remember that pivotal feeling when I realised I needed to learn more about the emotions evoked through sexuality.
Then there is Tokyo Decadence (1992); that one is amazing! It is about a woman who is a submissive escort in Tokyo and shows her dealing with clients and all their fantasies. Aesthetically a super sexy film, super erotic.
GATA: Tell me more about the changing perspective on shibari.
Marie Sauvage: 10 years ago, people would think that what I do is weird, and now they think it is cool. Gender politics is exploding. I feel like there is a shift going on in this direction. Then there was a huge backlash of conservative people fighting against it. It is a fight. Every day I am afraid someone is going to delete my Instagram. Sometimes people are angry. Especially in my personal relationships. Men get intimidated by freedom; they get insecure about it.
GATA: In a way, liberation and such confidence comes with the loss (and therefore gain) of fitting into a society full of judgment. One becomes less relatable. Do you think someone will eventually understand you?
Marie Sauvage: Well, no, maybe I have to just keep on doing what I do. Imagine I quit all just to make a man comfortable? I am doing so well. I can do a show in any country; I have my fan base. Why would I stop doing that to do a job that would be considered less intimidating?
I have spent the last decade being so free that I would not be happy if I changed anything. To be honest, I feel like I am becoming asexual; when you experience and experiment so much, other people’s minds do not excite you easily anymore. I don’t know if I believe in love or anything. The world is literally on fire. I can’t plan ahead for anything.